tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13710336.post403334773686398113..comments2022-09-18T11:14:36.876-04:00Comments on Neurochannels: Creationists take aim at neuroscience (1): defining their targetEric Thomsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06847717704454032165noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13710336.post-68966141837202193772008-12-13T23:17:00.000-05:002008-12-13T23:17:00.000-05:00Anonymous: such criteria should come after the sci...Anonymous: such criteria should come after the science has progressed. It has to start somewhere, and we are early in the science. What are the set of conditions to be used to know if a creature uses a language? Did we have to know that <I>before</I> we began to study language scientically? No, but that didn't mean early students of language weren't doing science.<BR/><BR/>We could say the same Eric Thomsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06847717704454032165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13710336.post-43252542434995084102008-12-13T22:49:00.000-05:002008-12-13T22:49:00.000-05:00I agree that scientists can study consciousness to...I agree that scientists can study consciousness to some extent, but until there is an objective test for consciousness that study is incomplete. Studying binocular rivalry gives us a clue to what a person is conscious of, but that is not the same as a study of consciousness directly.<BR/>This is an important point as scientists are famous for 'knowing it all'. (Nobody questioned Newton for Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13710336.post-14651831986533189172008-12-09T14:32:00.000-05:002008-12-09T14:32:00.000-05:00Arnold: interesting, but I think as a first pass c...Arnold: interesting, but I think as a first pass characterization (say, one you would use to describe what you are working on to your grandma or something) it's a bit esoteric.<BR/><BR/>There aren't any foolproof definitions out there that I've seen. They all invoke equally mysterious synonyms (e.g., 'phenomenal experience'). I think to focus too much on definitions is a mistake anyway, for Eric Thomsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06847717704454032165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13710336.post-30915964777248019942008-12-09T13:31:00.000-05:002008-12-09T13:31:00.000-05:00For your consideration, here's my first-pass defin...For your consideration, here's my first-pass definition of consciousness that I posted on the *Nature* forum aimed at arriving at a useful definition. It seems to be ending inconclusively. At any rate, this is what I find helpful now:<BR/><BR/>*Consciousness is a transparent phenomenal experience of the world from a privileged egocentric perspective.*arnold Trehubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10019949314092142107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13710336.post-89623985480678324512008-12-09T09:22:00.000-05:002008-12-09T09:22:00.000-05:00James:My initial definition is inclusive of any vi...James:<BR/>My initial definition is inclusive of any view of the nature of awareness and experience. That is, I don't exclude the 'first person' perspective (if that's how you want to put it), and don't exclude your view if you think awareness/experience is 'subjective' that's fine (I'm not sure what you mean by that exactly, but if it is consistent with experiencing a red rose then what have I Eric Thomsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06847717704454032165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13710336.post-23219964402873752172008-12-09T08:41:00.000-05:002008-12-09T08:41:00.000-05:00Hi Eric,“You are assuming that there is more to co...Hi Eric,<BR/><BR/><I>“You are assuming that there is more to consciousness than some "purely" functional or information processing story.”</I><BR/><BR/>Let me try and rephrase then: there is nothing in our present understanding of ‘information processing’ that even comes close to hinting at what subjective first-person experience is. <BR/><BR/>Does this therefore mean that the explanation of Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13957835772322921101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13710336.post-35504975452721184542008-12-08T12:33:00.000-05:002008-12-08T12:33:00.000-05:00Anibal: I wouldn't want to say arousal and awarene...<B>Anibal:</B> I wouldn't want to say arousal and awareness are synonyms. Arousal is a more general thing like being awake, a sort of measure of how much general energy and motivation you have. I look at arousal as a kind of measure of how high the volume knob is on our sympathetic nervous system.<BR><BR><B>James:</B><BR><I>I think the ‘experimental probing of consciousness’ that you refer to is Eric Thomsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06847717704454032165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13710336.post-6786338385578221672008-12-08T08:49:00.000-05:002008-12-08T08:49:00.000-05:00Hi Eric,I’m not trying to suggest you should have ...Hi Eric,<BR/><BR/>I’m not trying to suggest you should have to define it. I don’t think that, when faced with an unexplained phenomenon, our task is to try and define it. Our task should be to try and understand what’s going on. I think that trying to define something without really understanding it is likely to just lead to pointless arguments about words. <BR/><BR/>I’m trying to make the Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13957835772322921101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13710336.post-63979453915844007042008-12-08T06:02:00.000-05:002008-12-08T06:02:00.000-05:00If awareness is a perfect synonym for conciousness...If awareness is a perfect synonym for conciousness what about arousal? <BR/><BR/>I say this becuase many neurologists approaching what is called "disorders of conciousness" differentiate in consciousness two dimensions: awareness and arousal (a.k.a.; the content of consciouness and the level of conciousness)Anibal Monasterio Astobizahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03121020811080165520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13710336.post-60219082672405053192008-12-08T01:32:00.000-05:002008-12-08T01:32:00.000-05:00James,So far I've been completely neutral about th...James,<BR/><BR/>So far I've been completely neutral about the basis of this consciousness/awareness/subjective experience. I've just pointed to the phenomenon, not tried to explain it. It is not even well characterized empirically yet, so it would be premature for me to do so. <BR/><BR/>Prior to having a fully satisfactory definition or even rudimentary explanation, we can still probe Eric Thomsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06847717704454032165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13710336.post-34241894181187686912008-12-08T00:49:00.000-05:002008-12-08T00:49:00.000-05:00'Consciousness' is just another word for this abil...<I>'Consciousness' is just another word for this ability to perceive or be aware of the world. Indeed, for those who want to avoid the C-word, 'awareness' is a perfectly good synonym.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't think it's just that. You could have a system that has 'perception' and 'awareness' in a purely functional sense because of the information processing it does, without it having any subjective Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13957835772322921101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13710336.post-2831611071039040572008-12-07T17:51:00.000-05:002008-12-07T17:51:00.000-05:00Wholeflaffer: You have read something into my post...Wholeflaffer: You have read something into my post that is not there. I know many atheist dualists. I'm just setting up the problem.Eric Thomsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06847717704454032165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13710336.post-30186213381161044282008-12-07T15:37:00.000-05:002008-12-07T15:37:00.000-05:00You are writing very ambiguously here. I am not su...You are writing very ambiguously here. I am not sure how familiar you are with the philosophy of consciousness (your "definition" it is very controversial in philosophy and cannot be all there is to 'consciousness'), but I would wager you have little background in it. <BR/><BR/>Anyway back to the ambiguity: even though there are many prominent philosophical dualists (or non-reductionists or Wholeflafferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03923122826431229024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13710336.post-65280151765743950562008-12-06T20:00:00.000-05:002008-12-06T20:00:00.000-05:00I am looking foward to more- you seem to have a go...I am looking foward to more- you seem to have a good attitude toward this subject.<BR/>It is possible to study things we can't see directly (has anyone ever seen gravity?) and we can learn much by doing so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13710336.post-12877508592033562162008-12-03T14:05:00.000-05:002008-12-03T14:05:00.000-05:00Preach on! "Avoiding the topic leaves it in the ha...Preach on! <BR/><BR/><BR/>"Avoiding the topic leaves it in the hands of the philosophers, a fate just a little better than death."<BR/><BR/>Can I use the above in future discussions about consciousness? =DSirMoogiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10561739412799889781noreply@blogger.com